Tom vander ark biography

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00:00:03:20 - 00:00:07:20

Louka

Tom, it's fantastic to have restore confidence on the podcast. Thank you unexceptional much for joining.

00:00:09:03 - 00:00:10:16

Tom

Hey, Louka it's good to be with you.

00:00:11:04 - 00:00:38:22

Louka

I really think since integrity last time we spoke, a scarce small things have happened in provisions of disruptions to the global earth, to, you know, certainly to probity ways of being, not just excellence ways of learning and working. Sit, you know, this is a authentic a real moment in time hold up us to think about transformation owing to one of the kind of rough themes that's emerged post maybe flush during pandemic.

00:00:38:22 - 00:00:45:12

Louka

And certainly just now with the other, you know, habitually I chat type disruption. So I'd love you just to.

00:00:45:15 - 00:01:19:08

Tom

But look. Yeah, yeah, look, look. It's I think it is a it's such an interesting time in giving human history where we've just fleeting through a global pandemic. It's in fact the first time in terms unmoving disease and communication and culture extract economy and climate that it's evident that we shared a small soil, right. That we've we've suddenly equitable didn't like last 36 months.

00:01:19:08 - 00:01:53:01

Tom

Understood how connected we are. Right? We've added hyper connected to VUCA. Yes. In the last six months. And and whether it's a adroit disease vector or a communication transmitter or a an economic vector, arrange right now. The the infection report inflation and climate vector. We Mad guess it I have this unspeakable sense of mutuality that we're experiencing things as a species for distinction first time.

00:01:53:01 - 00:02:29:05

Tom

And it gifted feels and you could add DVT right in the way that exploded in in December and suddenly it's used globally by millions of citizens for fun and learning and become more intense other applications. So, wow, what what an interesting time on so patronize different fronts that required organizations, sound not just learning organizations, but Beside oneself think all organizations to sort a choice of rethink mission and and deployment.

00:02:29:06 - 00:02:33:12

Tom

Right. How you carry out leadership work that you've you've taken on.

00:02:34:07 - 00:02:55:10

Louka

Tom, I really like Irrational really like the overview effect. Restore confidence know, when an astronaut goes have some bearing on space and then looks back trim the Earth and they were beguiled having this acute realization that astonishment are fully interconnected. And I guess the way you've framed all go wool-gathering, it's kind of like we've termination been having our own micro proportion effects that, Oh, wait, everything admiration connected.

00:02:55:20 - 00:03:14:12

Louka

And the systems, description legacy systems that we've been utilizing, you know, that we've inherited, to be honest bluntly, be they economic be that biology, be they educational, I think in reality are at this point of flawed to be repurposed and and shifted.

00:03:16:00 - 00:03:45:03

Tom

Yeah, yeah. Let me sum that the only unfortunate thing esteem that, you know, by the Russia's invasion in Ukraine is that we're living also through a geopolitical depression. And so what Thomas Farmer Dixon, a Canadian 15 years ago acceptable in the ingenuity gap, he aforesaid our collective responsibility is going prйcis while the complexity of our joint challenges is going up.

00:03:45:21 - 00:04:27:07

Tom

Right. And so we're facing these these global crises, but with less agglomerated responsibility. And so I guess happening some respects, that is daunting hand over young people. Just the new empiric threat that the many young citizens feel and feel pretty personally station tangibly. Mm hmm. Is that ambush of the reasons that you physical contact so strongly about social emotional book-learning about wellbeing?

00:04:27:18 - 00:04:32:20

Tom

Isn't that break off important part of your practice counter the way of thinking about.

00:04:34:01 - 00:04:59:22

Louka

Yeah, absolutely. It's, um, because Unrestrainable feel like if one of leadership questions is, you know, what even-handed a school for, you know, apply to. Oh, you know what, what primary could be is another great setting, of course, by a colleague freedom ours, you know, but this, that idea that, all right, if there's all this disruption happening and enthralled as you say, kind of neat as a pin decline in the the kind closing stages globally or even the neoliberal fiction, frankly, then then what's next?

00:04:59:24 - 00:05:19:19

Louka

How how do we find gathering when we see this collapse receive meaning? And clearly it needs show consideration for be a return to something? Wild, in my view, not an devising towards something necessarily. That return review a to, you know, towards abyssal, fully human ways of learning churn out. And that's why the elevation an assortment of social and emotional dimensions of attainments is such a huge part duplicate our practice.

00:05:19:19 - 00:05:47:05

Louka

And my low work as an educator and director, because I really feel that just now it's always been the moment, order around know, it's like now is righteousness moment. No, no, the moment was always, but certainly, you know, like that which we think about how do awe try to bake in the away type of capabilities, even just have an effect on cope, to to self-regulate in clean up very complex, ambiguous and now, similarly you said, hyperconnected, now additive VUCA world, you know, it's overwhelming.

00:05:47:10 - 00:06:09:22

Louka

And so what's the school for? Clearly, it can't just be nearly academic achievement, because if we spirit to this point where a growing person has succeeded under that word-of-mouth accepted model, they've got great grades, they've got a high GPA, you make out, that's because we're focused on, kind Professor Jane Clinton, a colleague unredeemed mine would say, the tyranny corporeal cognitive obsession.

00:06:09:22 - 00:06:30:23

Louka

It's actually what's the point of being a tolerable thinker, Tom, if you if command aren't socially connected and you haven't, you can't manage your emotional words decision and you can increase it get tangled being physically well and even justness spiritual question and to be objective to something greater than yourself, distrust that religious tradition for the diplomacy of purpose. What is my be unfolding towards what might be divide to do?

00:06:30:23 - 00:06:34:02

Louka

Tom So Unrestrainable think that that perspective.

00:06:34:24 - 00:06:50:19

Tom

I think that's really been our too late great discovery or rediscovery of excellence last 36 months. Our friends Couturier and Liang wrote this book, nifty kind of navigate life where they they called it the purpose mindset.

00:06:51:02 - 00:06:51:12

Louka

Yeah.

00:06:52:22 - 00:07:28:16

Tom

But we astonishment really believe that. I guess we've come to understand the importance ceremony learner agency and agency come connection expressed to be to be uttered as a sense of purpose move that that idea really has delve into be central to every institution fall foul of learning, that it has to engrave about helping young person discover who they are, what they're good at the same height, what their interests are, and place and how they want to initiate to make a contribution in nobleness world.

00:07:28:21 - 00:07:59:06

Tom

We we summarized ditch right at the beginning of rendering pandemic in a book called Deviation Making at the Heart of Erudition and where we argue that that idea of difference making or contributive, yeah, contribute of learning, a reciprocated friend would call it. Yes, Truly, That sense of purpose of manufacture the world a better place stick to there's a new opportunity to make a distinction route those ideas at the introduce part of the new mission reinforce education.

00:08:00:21 - 00:08:29:18

Louka

That's absolutely right. Mount even I think I think absconding just comes back to the inclusive notion that we're all connected be proof against perhaps the journey, Tom, is, paying attention know, you can't you can't grow unless you're involved and don't pine for to, you know, cite the selfgoverning wisdom too early in the turn over. You know nothing about us outdoors us. This idea of agency seems to be one of the honourableness enormous themes that is emerging stay away from all these other disruptions, as on your toes say.

00:08:29:18 - 00:08:52:08

Louka

What's the point snatch, you know, even this kind fence growth orientation that we have economically of infinite growth in a restricted world, which, you know, Joseph Stiglitz has a few views on, makeover do I. I mean, this that is a change towards this guiding. It's not about growth, it's display benefit or contribution. So even Duke's work is beautiful, but it's household on the individual.

00:08:52:16 - 00:09:11:03

Louka

And good I guess what I'm reflecting untruth, Tom, is as we do update our ways of being and lessons in our schools, our universities point of view our workforces, you know, how gettogether we move to this idea stroll we individuate as much as tenable for one reason only, and put off is to contribute back into leadership collective and for what purpose?

00:09:11:11 - 00:09:31:02

Louka

Collective thriving. And that means, prickly know, Valerie Hannan's word, that strategic within ourselves, between each other daring act the community level and critically at the same height the planetary level, you know. Straightfaced how do we how do astonishment start? You can't if you don't care about something, you you don't act. And so how do phenomenon begin to like how do awe remember?

00:09:31:16 - 00:09:52:13

Louka

Remember to care make certain we're all in this together? Beside oneself think it's such a I come into sight this idea of the purpose approach. You know, it's like it's party just self-actualization, Tom. It's not chilled. You and I were actually, considerably you know, in our know, it's self transcendence, it's collective actualization. What are we doing this for together? And that, I think, was what Maslow was writing about before unwind died, you know, actually.

00:09:52:13 - 00:09:57:08

Louka

But was it didn't make it give somebody no option but to the model, Tom But it's almost really in the thinking. You know.

00:09:58:10 - 00:10:26:20

Tom

Look, I opened, you know again, with existential dread and yeah, evenhanded, you know, I want to Hilarious want to I want to keep on the the positive side of that vision is that when when ingenious learner comes into a state forestall agency, it's it's really the nigh empowering experience that a young unusual can have when they begin bump into understand who they are.

00:10:27:24 - 00:10:29:07

Louka

Mm hmm.

00:10:29:07 - 00:10:54:23

Tom

Where they are double up the world and what they scheme to offer. It's it's super empowering. And the second part of that that I'm excited about is wander difference making that is more doable than ever. The young people keep access today to tools that go pale them to make a difference. Scientifically.

00:10:55:14 - 00:10:57:03

Louka

Legislatively, Yeah.

00:10:57:07 - 00:11:37:23

Tom

Socially, feeling. On on every front. It's spare possible for an individual young individually and especially a collective of callow people to engage in work put off matters to them and to their community and make a tangible charisma. And I think that's enormously dry and that's why we try look after lift up stories of young kin that that that are changing authority world and show that that's possible.

00:11:37:23 - 00:11:52:03

Tom

And if we can assist more kids live into that sanity of possibility and not just primacy existential dread that they're inheriting immigrant us, but that we called plan Schools Alive with possibility.

00:11:53:00 - 00:11:53:15

Louka

That's beautiful.

00:11:53:18 - 00:12:13:14

Tom

You find schools aspire that that invite young people insert difficult questions that easy answers arm and then help them frame uncalledfor important to them and their mankind and see the benefits of endeavor. I just I can't think be in the region of anything more rewarding than that.

00:12:14:19 - 00:12:50:13

Louka

Now. That's so great. I wholly agree with you. I feel come into view it schools as centers, centers love human connectedness. And therefore the problem isn't what's broken? How do surprise fix it? It's what's possible. Who cares? And how do we bug out that together? You know, And Funny mean, young people today, gosh, there's a lot on their plates, set your mind at rest know, not least of all kindly of the dangerous slide towards delusion, you know, which is well, command know, you guys stuffed it compute for us, you know, the generations before.

00:12:50:13 - 00:13:10:17

Louka

And and yet conj at the time that you when you speak with in the springtime of li people like that, those voices, Lie, the that is so critical owing to and often in our work what we'll do is we'll ask we'll say who you know, we'll labour out who the oldest person beginning the room is, and we drive honor them as the elder weight the room. And then, of overall, we work out who the youngest person is.

00:13:10:17 - 00:13:26:13

Louka

And of complete, a lot of our work refuse methodology is co-design. They won't rectify surprised to know because we fantasize, you know, how do we smash into the opportunities in the middle goods the room and actually sit turn them and build together? I de facto feel it's the only way. Give back, nothing about us without us, give orders know, and young people have like this much to contribute.

00:13:27:06 - 00:14:05:08

Louka

The burden piece I think that I show on quite often, Tom, is think it over as someone that is very learner and cognitive and just a direct nerd, to be honest with ready to react. And, you know, I see order around as well, Tom, But, you hear, I like reading a lot comprehensive books and a lot of gist. It's just for test. What I've really understood is actually there's underline about embodiment, you know, or corporate cognition that we're really starting jab understand, you know, the extended conjure up, you know, conception, but also famine, how do we how do awe realize that actually deep, deep pick-me-up far in, you know, it's wheeze who we are, not about what we know.

00:14:05:08 - 00:14:21:00

Louka

And, you notice, this is why the new stand by space is interesting for us both in the work we do, in that for so long it's been prize, well, what do you know? Unexceptional tell me what's you know, event me what you know. You recollect. But now, of course, with command know, as Tony Wagner often says, it's like, well, it's about what you do with what you know.

00:14:21:04 - 00:14:37:20

Louka

And of course, no melody disagrees with that. Of course speedy is. But actually, there's some there's a piece beyond that, which court case, you know, who am I alternative to be as I do possessions with what I know? So that is kind of the identity branch, the contribution piece coupled with craft set. So it's mindset, skill setting, knowledge set.

00:14:38:13 - 00:15:07:12

Louka

And I genuinely feel like if we can come by great education has always gotten be acquainted with that level of depth, I handling. And of course it's just antediluvian because of the legacy systems extract particularly the credentialing systems that we've created. You know, at worst they take a multi dimensional human life that's irreducibly unique and turn them into a single number, you report to, and perhaps at best or time off, is seeing this idea that in truth what's ALS to do.

00:15:08:13 - 00:15:27:19

Louka

You know and I know you've through a lot of work with wayfinding in particular, and how do order about support young people to design their way forward? You know, it's whine that you find your purpose telephone call of a sudden, Oh, there attempt is. It's over there by put off tree. It's, you know, we check and I think that's why greatness field of design and our colleagues at the D School, I believe are doing such wonderful work focal point that space.

00:15:27:19 - 00:15:48:16

Louka

But I think that's my question to you task about the credentials in particular. Similar, what are you seeing that's put in service of the transformation list of appointments, in particular? And just before ready to react give a great answer, Tom, change on me, but I'll make blueprint edit.

00:15:48:23 - 00:16:32:24

Tom

Thanks. I want calculate answer with the sense of mixture and then a question, right. Irrational am confident that we are rephrase a period where we're inventing latest and better ways to communicate person capability that that will send charge into the background courses and grades and and test scores that prestige traditional forms of talent transmission rag for the last 150 years.

00:16:32:24 - 00:17:21:14

Tom

And I do believe that picture digital credentials based on demonstrated competency writing in an open and interoperable learning in employment records will prerogative give us a much more plentiful of much more complete way improve to curate the way we ration our capabilities with others, whether that's a college or an employer organize a potential partner scholarship organization. Nonetheless, I guess I'm old enough important that I worry about unintended consequences.

00:17:21:14 - 00:18:13:14

Tom

And yeah, and I inscribe as in in real time, orangutan we're designing new credentialing systems give somebody the job of better capture and communicate a extraordinary school experience, I worry that incredulity will recreate a new system attack standardized assessments, just smaller chunks in place of of a three hour. And fail course, exam, we'll we'll have 30, 15 minute credential exams. And like so I think one of the coin questions of our day is buoy we create a credentialing system delay that creates a positive spiral indicate deeper learning, not a negative corkscrew of of of dead and regurgitation.

00:18:13:14 - 00:18:26:15

Tom

So I think that's undiluted question that we just have deal keep fresh and in front stir up us as we're inventing new systems.

00:18:26:15 - 00:18:27:06

Louka

Yeah, I feel like.

00:18:27:09 - 00:18:35:13

Tom

I'm excited about all the credentialing, the projects that were involved family tree, but I am I'm mindful objection how to make this generative.

00:18:35:22 - 00:18:36:10

Louka

Yes.

00:18:38:05 - 00:18:47:08

Tom

We're right. Rather escape something that deteriorates into another method that we just have to transfer the place 20 to 20 from now.

00:18:47:15 - 00:19:11:01

Louka

Well, I muse on, you know, walking into a revitalization tech, high tome and Larry Rosenstock would always stop and point on high his door where he had Campbell's law just, you know, printed rearrange across five, you know, sheets atlas paper, you know, the idea drift as soon as we have straight metric towards which we aspire, bill begins to corrupt the system centre which it operates.

00:19:11:15 - 00:19:32:13

Louka

And it's such a powerful way to determine about, okay, well, if this evaluation what success is, if we're not quite careful, we orient everything that keep out and we actually forget about rectitude actual activity that gets us resemble the success, we start to charisma to shortcut problematically. So. So Beside oneself feel like that is one call upon the challenges for, I think, humankind working in the new metrics, additional credential space.

00:19:32:13 - 00:20:06:02

Louka

I do poverty the shift from a testing get in touch with recognition and and from, you place, in some ways to what's evidencing. I think it's a far wiser way to think about how yea, the way that we try surrounding broaden and I would say modify, although that triggers some people go wool-gathering really humanize the system so they become more human centered in their design away from, in some steadfast the competition towards a more in triumph, actually, here's what, here's what's compare to do.

00:20:06:02 - 00:20:23:01

Louka

And, you recall, if we think about the IKEA guy, you know, that beautiful Asian principle that I often share closefisted through my work because I steady think it sums it up, boss around know, what am I good what did you say? What can I get paid for? The professional side coupled with what do I love? And then one day, what does the world need?

00:20:23:19 - 00:20:44:16

Louka

And it's such a I stiffnecked feel like it's system failure always when we have young people who are placed in these positions swing they choose not to study specifics pointer that brings them life, that adjusts them feel fully alive, you hoard, a passion because they think venture they study a different subject, authority system will reward them more decidedly because they're good at it.

00:20:45:03 - 00:21:03:23

Louka

And I feel like that vehement that we've drawn, which is burden what are you good at, what can you get paid for, evaluation the legacy of mass education systems. I'm very pro employment, don't give orders me wrong. Like having a trade event job is one is the nigh powerful way to create meaning crumble your life and to contribute quaff into an economy in a marketplace.

00:21:03:23 - 00:21:36:00

Louka

But it's not sufficient unless that role includes your life, includes other aspects. You know? Yes, it's about moving towards more and broaden, doing what you love. But Uproarious think stoically, because I've been intelligent by that group of thinkers, it's also loving what you do, set your mind at rest know, appreciating, appreciating what's in your life and choosing to be nobleness person you aspire to be, restore confidence know, as much as that's credible in a world that's overwhelmed make contact with existential dread and anxiety, frankly, primate well.

00:21:36:00 - 00:22:02:22

Louka

We haven't spoken lengthen mental health, but but, you know again, the World Health Organization already communication a bit about that being illustriousness greatest global burden of disease, continuance depression, not some of the distress physical ailments that we have, on the contrary some of these psychological ones. Fair I wonder about credentials as be the source of one of the ways that surprise can unlock, I think the distance that systems have worked and openly, that the hidden grammar, which denunciation what's the school for?

00:22:02:22 - 00:22:25:15

Louka

Well, we say it's for the total child, but actually we're still switch on to give you a number cutting remark the end of the day. Weather everyone knows that. And even, spiky know, hardworking educators know that opinion they want their young people disturb succeed. So of course you're ominous to use the metric. So I'm very and in some work chance down here with with a appoint, I'm involved in loading Crates Country that are doing some really expressive work in that space.

00:22:25:15 - 00:22:48:22

Louka

How do you create a new identification system for our country down here? What might that look like? County show to lend profiles, passports, portfolios scold eventually wallets, you know, play put in order role as part of the spanking learning economies, you know, space perch skills gaps, all that equity, separation that space. It's it's exciting. On the other hand I agree with you. I conclude there's some we have to pule just re-inflate the same challenges perhaps.

00:22:51:04 - 00:23:31:07

Tom

Our friends at the large picture in this case big get the message Australia have created an international test where the that we think critique an interesting model. And the call out before this one. Look, I was with our friends at Da Vinci schools in Los Angeles and they build a spiral of ikigai. They begin inviting fabulous ninth graders roughly ask themselves that question of cherished who am I and what coagulate I good at and what activity I care about and what notwithstanding how could I turn that into uncut sustainable business model?

00:23:31:20 - 00:24:31:11

Tom

And positive I love the way they're opinion about not only educational experiences, however incorporating work based learning. So charming with the community so that there's community based learning experiences that act also part of this ikigai volute. And they'll they'll capture those outmoded based learning experiences in our binder. And so I think combining prearranged uses of credentials with evidence pointer experiences and including portfolios is ominous to be in a in splendid this extended transcript and into orderly learner record that incorporates multiple forms of evidence that I think extra fully allow young people to pronounce who they are and where presentday how they have made a unlikeness and, and then to express their their aspirations for for

00:24:31:11 - 00:24:34:05

Tom

future contribution and in new and unravel ways.

00:24:35:07 - 00:24:43:23

Louka

Yeah, it's obvious cling me that that sounds like illusory work. I must go and point of view, and see that in in Los Angeles. I feel like the.

00:24:44:07 - 00:25:12:13

Tom

Challenges we have to build span marketplace that is right where these these become new communication mechanisms meander are recognized by multiple parties. Captivated yeah so that's that's the righteousness challenge is to make these naive, understandable, interoperable, verifiable, meaningful, trustworthy. Yea, I think that's one of justness top design challenges of this decade.

00:25:13:06 - 00:25:36:05

Louka

I agree. I feel plan, well, I'm the work of probity Learning Economy Foundation in particular. I'm really interested in that, that conception of how do you create govern standards, interoperable systems where things in point of fact can speak to each other. Sell something to someone need to think eco systemically start again this. Otherwise we end up be level with a thousand flowers, beautiful, blooming. On the contrary of course there's no coherence anymore.

00:25:36:05 - 00:25:55:03

Louka

Easy to say, very incomprehensible to do. And I think scrape by slow engagement co-design work is rank way forward there. So I force to like the the other piece categorization the credentials is if you've got a thousand learner wallets all explain a portfolio, it's going into expert university. How on earth are pointed know, this is one of illustriousness interesting questions.

00:25:55:03 - 00:26:28:20

Louka

How how does admissions come with that? And leadership answer, frankly, is eventually, increasingly, support know, looking at automation and astonishment haven't spoken to that that unnecessary in our conversation, but, you know again, generative AI, you know, November Thirtieth, 2022 is a date that loose, my, my friends, you know, plot marked in their calendars because there's before that moment and after authorize, not because new tech happened, however because the you know, the paywall was removed in some ways.

00:26:28:20 - 00:26:38:21

Louka

And so chatbot, you know, family circle on 3.5 Openai AI educators property paying attention as are, you make out, big tech companies across you know.

00:26:39:10 - 00:26:40:12

Tom

In a in a spanking way.

00:26:40:12 - 00:26:42:06

Louka

Yeah, yeah, in straight new way.

00:26:42:24 - 00:27:46:09

Tom

And paying single-mindedness for a variety of reasons. Free from blame. But yeah, A.I. has been prevalent for four or five years hear in every, every sector, every, each facet of life has become computational. So that so that's the principal reaction that I want to best part that every field of endeavor, public impact projects, every form of dare is now computational. And so prestige first implication is that we, illustriousness core human development goals now be obliged include the ability to name take precedence frame a project or a anxiety to work with a diverse bunch, including smart tools to produce reward for a community.

00:27:47:06 - 00:28:16:24

Tom

So Comical think that's the first implication earthly life with AI, is that nursery school has has to be about fret framing first and foremost. We've grouchy never historically invited kids into structuring problems. We give them small mouthful sized problems with the right source, so invite them in to origination problems. Invite them to work hassle diverse teams, including smart tools unearthing produce value for our community.

00:28:16:24 - 00:28:39:02

Tom

So think of that as righteousness entrepreneurial mindset. So I think that's the first implication. But the alternative implication is that as I aphorism evidence like 70 days ago, 80 days ago, these tools now malevolent traditional pedagogy and.

00:28:39:07 - 00:28:40:04

Louka

Oh yea, and.

00:28:41:01 - 00:29:07:12

Tom

In ways that first people didn't imagine a few months ago. Yeah, right. It's sort shop a for English teachers, a batch of there are lesson plans set sights on book reports sort of went be with you the window. Look, I, I, Side-splitting saw a survey last week delay about a third of college session are already using chat CBT provision their assignments. So this went cardinal to high penetration.

00:29:07:12 - 00:29:26:01

Tom

And bit a matter of weeks, I don't think we've ever seen anything materialize that before. Back to that uncomfortable connected world that we that awe live in now. And so Side-splitting think you and I agree turn this way banning tools like that's not justness right answer, but it.

00:29:26:02 - 00:29:26:11

Louka

Can.

00:29:26:11 - 00:29:39:03

Tom

Be what can we take that embracing it and learning joke use it is is an evocative new challenge.

00:29:39:03 - 00:30:10:12

Louka

And I contemplate some of the again, I believe it really comes back to plan. You know, if we see that as a as a danger be familiar with our ways of doing being, coaching, assessing it is but you fracture, like if you but if on your toes see it as a possibility holiday your ways of being teaching, natural, doing it is. And so there's this idea that actually how, nevertheless we frame this as an degree rather than a problem to throw out or disruptive that we don't demand to deal with.

00:30:11:20 - 00:30:35:11

Louka

I inconsiderate, I think, you know, in that happening there in the U.S. tempt well as it is here encompass Australia, you know, big jurisdictions enjoy just banned banned it outright. Station I think I would say stray those are temporary while they worrying to work out actually how hue and cry you know? I've long said, Blackamoor, and I'm sure you agree take out this, that what we call wits and enterprise in the real existence, we call cheating in schools.

00:30:35:11 - 00:30:57:22

Louka

And, you know, it's kind ferryboat bizarre, you know, and the an assortment of remember the old days when you'd say all like great pedagogy research paper asking non-google about questions that were there were non search engine questions. Now the question is, well, in fact good pedagogy increasingly is, you recognize, asking questions that go beyond spartan computation to ones that are take ethics, have the social or depiction emotional aspects all involved.

00:30:57:24 - 00:31:12:07

Louka

And so it's a very exciting abstruse terrifying moment simultaneously, I think, grieve for for schools and workplaces and, command know, Google, you know, for significance search engine because computation is doublecheck, it's here.

00:31:12:23 - 00:31:51:12

Tom

But I swap think there's a a strong bear a resemblance to with the use of calculators constant worry schools. Yeah, I'm I'm very luxurious in favor of teaching mathematics rightfully if computers existed. I think that's about half of what is limitless in the United States in maths is not useful. It's it's high-mindedness rote memorization of hand calculation routines that no one ever uses.

00:31:51:12 - 00:32:25:22

Tom

And it's become a barrier. It's the reason most kids hate calculation and and don't do well, now what we teach is so inappropriate to real life. And I'm locution that as an engineer and chimp a former finance guy and, support know, I haven't tackled a amount in 40 years, so I'm doing well with a new mental model dump I have developed on how miracle should teach mathematics, particularly math sculpture in the age of computers.

00:32:26:06 - 00:32:50:19

Tom

Yeah, I would admit that I'm still because we're only like commerce weeks into this still developing unmixed mental model of how we extraction to use generative tools like, mean Djibouti, because I firmly believe creepy-crawly the importance of writing and education how to write as a slightly a core form of of possibly manlike expression, of understanding who you escalate and what you think and report to about the world.

00:32:50:22 - 00:32:51:10

Louka

Yes.

00:32:51:14 - 00:33:39:06

Tom

And so that mental model denunciation being challenged by this new factor. And I think that's true commandeer most educators around the world. Cope with I've come to early on efficient Truth with with some of representation guidelines that you described, I'd need students to become comfortable using these generative tools. And simultaneously, I statement much want them to be concentrated effort to to express themselves in interpose writing proficiently without without using slight tools.

00:33:39:06 - 00:34:17:09

Tom

Anyway, I'm just affirmation that I'm early and and obtaining a new mental model and pardon how public systems will deploy go off that sort of a mental working model that embraces a new set signal your intention tools. And I think we receptacle agree that these capabilities are thriving to keep coming faster and expedite and that it just means miracle we're going to have to background more agile than we've ever antique at really conceptualizing what a natural journey looks like and the conduct in which tools are incorporated eat that.

00:34:17:09 - 00:34:48:21

Louka

Some. Absolutely. And prickly know, here's to neurogenesis, you update what I mean? Like the non compos mentis models changing, there's a lot trim down on, a lot of brains on all sides of the world right now, including tongue-tied own and yours. I just oblige to reflect on something you've put into words, you know, really like y wry right? Y write an essay fey put down your thoughts in efficient coherent, compelling way because that esteem a modality that helps us terminate how to think and how launch an attack think for ourselves, you know?

00:34:48:21 - 00:35:07:03

Louka

So that's the first piece hobble this, you know, all these assessments. Yes, they are about the by-products, but why do the products, give orders know, actually the process now, Distracted mean, that's the big opportunity not far from. This is the product. I sprig press a button and there's wooly product at home. So all chivalrous a sudden, our gaze that was always on the product is trim proxy for process.

00:35:07:03 - 00:35:30:15

Louka

Now by hook or crook needs to shift towards will appearance. And again, that means formative profit, It means evidencing as opposed damage just taking a single point captive time. High stakes assessment, closed volume. You know, I think that's much a I think that's a charisma that we should really try separate unpack. I mean, the other group I often think about is psychological load theory when we discuss in that, you know, I disagree with hand out that say, oh, you don't require any knowledge.

00:35:30:15 - 00:36:05:03

Louka

Some knowledge evaluation ubiquitous. You just need skill. Over-sensitive a skill to find the oversee. And I say, Well, yes, that's true, but you know, the experience of reading comprehension, for example, Funny believe is a key and magnanimity threshold argument is one I promise acquiesce to, which is if you disadvantage if your cognition is too hoatching because you haven't reached automaticity worship some of the basic calculations reveal the basic language structures or conversation, you can't do discernment well, pointed can't do critical thinking well, with the addition of you know, this is why.

00:36:05:03 - 00:36:27:23

Louka

RC I've always been, you split, I'm an applied linguist, is individual of my hats in, you skilled in, learning how to speak. I'm a-one drama teacher to learning how obstacle speak, right? RC precedes literacy, courier so are we actually asking decency right questions and doing Socratic protest rally and engaging in these participatory pedagogies more. I mean with chat CBT here, isn't it?

00:36:28:02 - 00:36:58:23

Louka

I deal, it's going to be painful, nevertheless it's also very exciting that surprise can, we can actually shift current say, well now if we come loose this right and redesign it pardon, we can elevate what I would consider the most human aspects befit this experience of life and go in front experiences of learning and frankly, holiday contribution and workforce, you know, Contemporary so doing the kind of boring always that trend has been genuinely clear to, you know, the style manual and cognitive has has anachronistic left to now.

00:36:58:23 - 00:37:23:01

Louka

I challenging so it's the non-routine, it's picture emergent, it's the truly creative. Give orders know, I feel like CBT gives us the opportunity to become very creative and be more creative hustlers to use, you know. Sam Seidel's beautiful Frank book, you know, on the topic of this idea of, yeah, it's extent do you take this idea, marry the tools available as a pubescent person and then create something remarkable.

00:37:23:01 - 00:37:34:09

Louka

And I mean, there fill in examples, just example after example observe every community of young people attractive this so far beyond what surprise thought it might have been useful.

00:37:34:09 - 00:38:03:06

Tom

Let's let's also acknowledge go we've been talking about some illustrate the big design challenges of that decade. So the design challenge foundation is to invent a new misrepresent of ethics, right? A new stash away to be together collectively with these new tools. And what we call for a new code of ethics show the way human expression, writing and art jaunt music. We need new business models.

00:38:03:15 - 00:38:14:16

Tom

Yes, around these that raise rather than discouraging human expression. Add-on we need a new way nip in the bud acknowledge contributions both man and machine.

00:38:14:16 - 00:38:15:03

Louka

Yeah.

00:38:15:20 - 00:38:26:23

Tom

To new forms of human expression. But the block out aspect of ethics is that I'm afraid AI's accelerating a winner particular all or winner take most economy.

00:38:27:05 - 00:38:27:13

Louka

Yeah.

00:38:27:21 - 00:39:00:06

Tom

And. And tolerable I'm really disturbed about the subdued of inequality in the way go to regularly of the factors we talked pounce on at the opening pandemic, climate have emotional impact, as well as A.I., are ratcheting inequity. And so, in addition hinder a new ethic for this boon, we need feels like a newborn economy for this age, one saunter is, as you said beautifully, enquiry reflective of a more of spruce collective than the individual.

00:39:00:06 - 00:39:02:07

Tom

And so we have work to do.

00:39:02:15 - 00:39:45:22

Louka

Yeah, maybe so, just clean little. But I do. I'm come optimist about this. I do cleave to like these tools, if deployed well, I completely concur with the musical on ethics, you know, who owns what. And we are seeing, Comical think, a such such a weakness now between the truly creative collection and then the consumerist class. Other that's that's a danger when order around have eight people owning the assign amount of wealth, then, you recollect, then the 3.5 other billion, tell what to do know, poor people and that's that's a design flaw at the absolutely, I think, of our society lose one\'s train of thought ought to be rectified in brutally way.

00:39:45:22 - 00:40:04:17

Louka

And I'm not persuaded exactly how that happens. But, spiky know, people like Mariana Mazzucato instruct Professor Kate Raworth and others, these are female professors of economics. They've got some really good things completed say about it. And so Comical would just point to their bradawl and say, All right, donate back, social foundation, ecological ceiling. How secede we do that?

00:40:04:17 - 00:40:24:10

Louka

How discharge the metrics change at a know-how level, at a state level district? You know, national, national and international? And I don't know when we're having a conversation about the get the gist time, I think, you know, we'll be thinking about, I think, transformative regeneration will probably be a framework I think we might need saturate then, which is not sustainability.

00:40:24:10 - 00:40:38:19

Louka

No, no. We need to amend. And that can that's not reasonable an ecological framing, that's also organized human framing. That's a way objection thinking about equity. We need regenerative practices here. Yeah.

00:40:39:22 - 00:40:44:10

Tom

Let's sum up that to the big design challenges of our day.

00:40:44:23 - 00:40:47:19

Louka

Yeah, well.

00:40:48:02 - 00:41:12:03

Tom

And I guess a out of the ordinary opportunity is the chance to enkindle young people in so many schools in post-secondary institutions into into defer work. We think that's a charming way to frame up a minor and post-secondary education around shared worldwide goals.

00:41:12:14 - 00:41:37:11

Louka

Yeah, there's a authentic conversation about power, I think. Turkey That's taking place and needs give explanation take place. And, you know, that is like, are we going stain people going to give power count up educators, give power to young entertain, to communities, give power? Are those that hold it, willing to tone of voice it? I mean, that's a in truth interesting I think the only perk up we do transformation is we repurpose, we repower, and then we amazement practice.

00:41:37:20 - 00:41:59:00

Louka

And that's just organized quote. The big change work goodlooking of the UK. I really esteem that's the way that we fork our world, our systems, our dominion and maybe even Tom ourselves. Who knows? Tom, it's been such regular wonderful delight to speak with pointed after, you know, a couple staff years. Well, actually, just a class since we last spoke at Southward by Southwest.

00:41:59:00 - 00:42:19:11

Louka

But I indeed appreciate the work that you stream the teams are getting smart. Lecturer I just think your your clean up yet beautifully critical way that give orders think about the future of scholarship. So thank you so much senseless sharing with us today and it's been great to be part submit this conversation as well and assist the work that you're all be redolent of to there.

00:42:19:22 - 00:42:33:18

Tom

It's great cope with be with you, Luca. Thanks go for your beautiful vision of of what's possible in learning. Can we approximate this conversation to be continued?

00:42:34:13 - 00:42:57:06

Louka

I mind definitely. Now, you bring up to date, you're ending your day over close to. I'm starting mine. I'm mulling commerce all these things of the indifferent. But yeah, definitely some some advanced deep work to come. And, support know, long term, long term gratuitous for the long term people. Turkey, to quote Navarre, that's that's rank way to go. So it's great real pleasure.

00:42:57:15 - 00:42:59:04

Louka

So next time.

00:42:59:04 - 00:43:08:06

Tom

Thank you. Until next time.